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one, a vote on public unions. the second vote on private unions. both of those bills are expected to pass the house. if they do, the measure will go to governor rick schneider's desk. he is expected to sign it as early as today, if all of this transpires as expected. ashleigh? >> and we've got live pictures before you, alison, of the house vote that's going on right now as we speak. so what's the reaction? it looks as if this is going to be a fate kplooe in many people's eyes. what are the unions going to do about it, if anything? >> reporter: i basically asked them, this is pretty much a lost cause, isn't it? and they said, no, it's not, because we want our voices heard, and even though we're not going to keep this law from going into effect, they say they will have the power come election time in two years to change the landscape. so they want their voices heard today that come election time, they say they will be heard. ashleigh? >> alison kosik for us live outside the state capitol in lansing, michigan. and of course, that state, michigan, syno
one, a vote on public unions. the second vote on private unions. both of those bills are expected to pass the house. if they do, the measure will go to governor rick schneider's desk. he is expected to sign it as early as today, if all of this transpires as expected. ashleigh? >> and we've got live pictures before you, alison, of the house vote that's going on right now as we speak. so what's the reaction? it looks as if this is going to be a fate kplooe in many people's eyes. what are...
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nobody has to join a union or pay union dues. if a majority vote to be represent represented, to have a voice in the workplace, that representative has to represent everybody. there can be no discrimination. all the benefits have to flow to everybody else and they have to pay everybody a reasonable fee to help the union represent everybody, so essentially it is anti-union. >> but there's people who have the problem with that fee that you're talking about right in theory that fee could go to something ultimately that an individual doesn't support and this has been a main contention in this debate that's been going back and forth. why do you think the numbers are so divided. you look at the state of michigan, the home of the big three, it's a union state. why is the number so down the middle when it comes to supporting right to work state in that particular state? >> because i think the issue is explained, it isn't down the middle. people in michigan understand that having a representative, a voice in the workplace, created the mid
nobody has to join a union or pay union dues. if a majority vote to be represent represented, to have a voice in the workplace, that representative has to represent everybody. there can be no discrimination. all the benefits have to flow to everybody else and they have to pay everybody a reasonable fee to help the union represent everybody, so essentially it is anti-union. >> but there's people who have the problem with that fee that you're talking about right in theory that fee could go...
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then you have democrats, labor unio unions, the aarp saying we don't need to think about raising the retirement age. every time you have a short term play special interest dig in. until they erase the trust deficit, every time they do it incrementally they make it harder to do the big stuff. >> notwithstanding the problems in this conversation and notwithstanding problems from washington, there is some economic renaissance that's brewing under the surface here. we have an energy boom going on, low energy prices. we have manufacturing output increasing in this country. we have the housing boom with low interest rates to stay for a couple of yearses. is there enough that could happen that could offset what's going on in washington? can we grow our way out of this? >> we can't ignore them. if they blow it, there is nothing we can do. the risks are becoming more balanced where things like the housing recovery, consumer debt coming down are starting to offer the possibility where growth might be stronger although it could be lower. it's more balanced. i think they will strike a deal. they
then you have democrats, labor unio unions, the aarp saying we don't need to think about raising the retirement age. every time you have a short term play special interest dig in. until they erase the trust deficit, every time they do it incrementally they make it harder to do the big stuff. >> notwithstanding the problems in this conversation and notwithstanding problems from washington, there is some economic renaissance that's brewing under the surface here. we have an energy boom...
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limits the unions' power. michigan's republican governor says he'll sign the bill if it hits his desk this week. >>> we heard from the boss of a radio station behind that london hospital prank. the joke apparently led to the suicide of a nurse who worked there. the australian network chairman calls the death truly tragic and says they're waiting for the full investigation to be complete. two australian deejays called the hospital impersonating british royals and managed to get personal information about prince william easily wife. the nurse who took the call was found dead two days later. the hospital says the deejays' prank was foolish. >>> it as decades-old reform school mystery that still haunts its students. stories about boys who were brutally beaten to death by guards, boys who suddenly disappeared. a recent state investigation findings are set to be released tomorrow. ed lavandera visited the school. >> reporter: a mystery haunts the grounds this much now-defunct reform school for boys in a florida panh
limits the unions' power. michigan's republican governor says he'll sign the bill if it hits his desk this week. >>> we heard from the boss of a radio station behind that london hospital prank. the joke apparently led to the suicide of a nurse who worked there. the australian network chairman calls the death truly tragic and says they're waiting for the full investigation to be complete. two australian deejays called the hospital impersonating british royals and managed to get personal...
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the union's power. michigan's republican governor says he'll sign the bill if it hits his desk this week. >>> you know, it's been dubbed the fireball over texas. a bright light was seen streaking across the houston sky friday morning and for a few hours it was the walk of the town. debra wrigley of ktrk has the story. >> reporter: from a nasa camera, it looked like a bright light above the earth. these are from eyewitness viewers around the houston area. just as day was breaking a bright flash of light that some people thought was lightning. >> i was like i guess it's going to rain. >> reporter: it wasn't the weather and it was spotted all around texas. this map just a sampling of sightings in the houston area, and these are some of the pictures sent to abc 13.com showing a small area of colored light. others showing a trail behind it. and people have been talking about it all day. >> taking a picture of the sky like a big flash. >> co-workers who are talking about did you hear about the flash this morn
the union's power. michigan's republican governor says he'll sign the bill if it hits his desk this week. >>> you know, it's been dubbed the fireball over texas. a bright light was seen streaking across the houston sky friday morning and for a few hours it was the walk of the town. debra wrigley of ktrk has the story. >> reporter: from a nasa camera, it looked like a bright light above the earth. these are from eyewitness viewers around the houston area. just as day was breaking...
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fees, wouldn't be forced to join a union and this is a huge deal for michigan, because really unions are the fabric of the state. really where the united auto workers union was born. so if you see this law pass, it certainly could undermine the credibility, the clout, the power, the influence of a union in michigan, but also unions across the country as well, zoraida. >> and potentially bust the union, which is what people are worried about. tell us what's happening today. >> okay, mass demonstrations expected to begin in a few hours. i'm watching labor union officials start to set up here at the state capitol. what they are hoping do is change the way that votes are expected to go today. the final votes expected to happen in the house and senate chambers here, if those votes pass, which they are expected to pass, it will go to governor rick snyder's desk, and he's expected to sign it. nonetheless, the thousands of demonstrator who's are expected to descend on the state capitol today are hoping that their voices will be heard, zoraida. >> we have heard that about 10,000 are expected.
fees, wouldn't be forced to join a union and this is a huge deal for michigan, because really unions are the fabric of the state. really where the united auto workers union was born. so if you see this law pass, it certainly could undermine the credibility, the clout, the power, the influence of a union in michigan, but also unions across the country as well, zoraida. >> and potentially bust the union, which is what people are worried about. tell us what's happening today. >> okay,...
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, the unions that are really the life blood of michigan, many say it is the unions which built michigan up in first place. you have to also remember there is a huge symbolic element of to this. the united autoworkers union was born here in michigan. it is hard for the folks who live here to see the power of the unions be diminished and the reality is, if this law passes, brooke, it means not only in michigan you'll see the power of unions fall, but this could also be the first salvo for unions across the country to lose their clout as well. brooke? >> alison kosik, thank you. we won't go too far from you. want to remind all of you, we're watching, awaiting the president in redford, michigan. as soon as we see him, we will bring you back to live pictures on the issue of these unions in lansing. also wanted to let you know, the vice president of the uaw will be joining me here within the next hour or so. and we'll talk to her. she's negotiating. she's the one negotiating with the governor on behalf of some 17,000 members who are working for the state of michigan and we'll ask her if she h
, the unions that are really the life blood of michigan, many say it is the unions which built michigan up in first place. you have to also remember there is a huge symbolic element of to this. the united autoworkers union was born here in michigan. it is hard for the folks who live here to see the power of the unions be diminished and the reality is, if this law passes, brooke, it means not only in michigan you'll see the power of unions fall, but this could also be the first salvo for unions...
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join the union or pay dues to the union. money is at the core of power in these unions. that is very, very significant. protesters here are filling the halls of the capitol yesterday trying to rush through the doors. eight arrests made. mace sprayed by police. it got very rowdy here at the capitol. i want i want you to listen to one protester. >> it terrifies me that they're trying to pass this through so quickly with no discussion from the other side. no understanding of what's important no discussion about the finer points, all the things this will effect. democracy is way too important to let it slide through like this. >> reporter: democrats are calling this a subversion of the legislative process. this did not go through committee or public debate. the head of the united auto workers vehemently opposing here. here protesting yesterday. the governor here, the republican governor saying this is a move for workplace fairness. >> to be pro-worker, to give freedom of choice to the workplace. and that the legislators move pro
join the union or pay dues to the union. money is at the core of power in these unions. that is very, very significant. protesters here are filling the halls of the capitol yesterday trying to rush through the doors. eight arrests made. mace sprayed by police. it got very rowdy here at the capitol. i want i want you to listen to one protester. >> it terrifies me that they're trying to pass this through so quickly with no discussion from the other side. no understanding of what's important...
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dues to the union. that could mean less money for the union. that means less power at the bargaining table. less of an ability to compel people to join the union. this not only would apply to public sector workers, it would apply to those workers that worked for ford, gm, chrysler, all of the unions here. so protesters here are storming through the halls of this state capital in lansing yesterday. i want you to take a listen to what one protester said. >> it terrifies me they are trying to pass this through with no discussion from the other side. no understanding of what's important in it. >> reporter: the union members that were protesting chanting things like "union busting is disgusting." it did not go through public debate, but the republican mayor here insists that this is beneficial for the workers. here's his take. >> to give freedom of choice to our workplace and that legislators move promptly and efficiently in moving it through the legislature and when it arrives on my desk, i plan on signing
dues to the union. that could mean less money for the union. that means less power at the bargaining table. less of an ability to compel people to join the union. this not only would apply to public sector workers, it would apply to those workers that worked for ford, gm, chrysler, all of the unions here. so protesters here are storming through the halls of this state capital in lansing yesterday. i want you to take a listen to what one protester said. >> it terrifies me they are trying...
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it would allow workers to on the out of paying union dues in unionized shops. hundreds of pro-union workers are protesting at the statehouse, as leaders vote on this bill. >>> the australian radio station behind the prank call that apparently led to a nurse taking her own life plans to donate at least $500,000 australian to her family. ya sintha saldanha commit suicide last week after being duped by two djs who called a hospital seeking information about prince william's wife who was being treated there for acute morning sickness. >>> the roof just collapsed. >> it just collapsed. >> the ceiling in this north birmi ingha birmingham, alabama, home collapses after torrential rains from severe storms and the national weather service confirms a tornado also hit the area. the twister with winds around 90 miles per hour touched down early monday morning. no serious injuries are reported, but dozens of homes and businesses were damaged. they could save a lot of money on their car insurance by switching to geico...they may even make you their best man. may i have the r
it would allow workers to on the out of paying union dues in unionized shops. hundreds of pro-union workers are protesting at the statehouse, as leaders vote on this bill. >>> the australian radio station behind the prank call that apparently led to a nurse taking her own life plans to donate at least $500,000 australian to her family. ya sintha saldanha commit suicide last week after being duped by two djs who called a hospital seeking information about prince william's wife who was...
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whether or not they want to join a union and pay those union dues. and they say it also grows jobs. >> it actually makes unions more accountable and makes them more responsive to their members because now the unions can't take them for granted. remember, right to work doesn't affect collective bargaining in any other way except for take away the union's ability to fire a worker for not paying them. they can still bargain over hours, wages and working conditions. >> reporter: so the vote expected to happen tomorrow, starting at 10:00 a.m. the house and the senate will each vote on each other's measures. also, demonstrations expected to begin. the opening salvo happening 9:00 a.m., down this street right here. thousands are expected to march, starting here, all the way up to lansing city hall. that would be just the beginning of the day. wolf. >> alison on the scene for us, thank you. the president's taking a political risk by getting into michigan's union fight at the same time he's locked in a major battle in washington over raising ta spending cuts
whether or not they want to join a union and pay those union dues. and they say it also grows jobs. >> it actually makes unions more accountable and makes them more responsive to their members because now the unions can't take them for granted. remember, right to work doesn't affect collective bargaining in any other way except for take away the union's ability to fire a worker for not paying them. they can still bargain over hours, wages and working conditions. >> reporter: so the...
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to the union. this brings into question, what is the future of unions in america? today i had a chance to talk to the person at the heart of that debate, bob king. here is his take. does this mean the beginning of sort of a death of unions in this country? are you concerned that this is that big symbolically? >> reporter: n. >> no. i think that workers and working families are tired of losing. they want a fair share of the prosperity and i think that's going to help build the union movement. >> reporter: also today, wolf, we talked to thousands and thousands of protesters, many of them union workers. even those exempt from this legislation came here to be heard, including firefighters and police officers. here's the take of ted, a firefighter in detroit. you're exempt from this right to work legislation. why are you here? >> that's correct. we are as of right now exempt of this legislation but it doesn't change the fact that we want to be here to support our brothers and sisters in the union becaus
to the union. this brings into question, what is the future of unions in america? today i had a chance to talk to the person at the heart of that debate, bob king. here is his take. does this mean the beginning of sort of a death of unions in this country? are you concerned that this is that big symbolically? >> reporter: n. >> no. i think that workers and working families are tired of losing. they want a fair share of the prosperity and i think that's going to help build the union...
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pay union dues if they choose not to. >>> a massive gas line explosion jolted people in their homes. saying it felt like a plane crash. the 70-foot wall of fire destroyed four homes near charleston, west virginia. five other homes were also damaged. this fire was so intense, you can see it right there. damaged an interstate, several people were treated for smoke inhalation. >>> ravi shankar has died. he passed away tuesday after undergoing heart valve replacement surgery. 92 years old and a legend for 50 years. shankar and george harrison teamed up for the concert for bangladesh. his daughter, singer norah jones. he did the score for the movie "ga "ghandi." really recognizable. >>> let's get back to the top stories. investigators still trying to figure out the shooter at an oregon's mall motives. let's talk with someone in the mall. alexis, a terrifying day yesterday. how are you doing? >> hi, there. still recovering this morning. still a little shaken up and can't believe this actually happened. in the community i've grown up my whole life and the mall i've been to hundreds of times
pay union dues if they choose not to. >>> a massive gas line explosion jolted people in their homes. saying it felt like a plane crash. the 70-foot wall of fire destroyed four homes near charleston, west virginia. five other homes were also damaged. this fire was so intense, you can see it right there. damaged an interstate, several people were treated for smoke inhalation. >>> ravi shankar has died. he passed away tuesday after undergoing heart valve replacement surgery. 92...
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the legislation introduced by rick schneider would limit union's abilities to collect dues. the bill passed the house today. >>> the us navy is moving ships into position to monitor a north korean possible rocket launch. the defense department tells barbara starr that two ships are being moved to an unspecified position to provide reassurance to allies. the sources say it's possible two more ships could be sent to the region in the next few days and the taliban has claimed responsibility for the suicide attack that wounded afghanistan's intelligence chief. an official says the attacker targeted the chief as he was leaving a meeting. hamid karzai told reporters he's cnn's barbara starr that two ships are being moved to an unspecified position to provide reassurance to allies. it's possible two more ships could be sent to the region in the next few days. the taliban claimed responsibility for the suicide attack that wounded afghanistan's intelligence chief today. a senior police official says they targeted the chief as he was leaving a meeting. afghan president karzai told rep
the legislation introduced by rick schneider would limit union's abilities to collect dues. the bill passed the house today. >>> the us navy is moving ships into position to monitor a north korean possible rocket launch. the defense department tells barbara starr that two ships are being moved to an unspecified position to provide reassurance to allies. the sources say it's possible two more ships could be sent to the region in the next few days and the taliban has claimed...
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legislation by rick schneider would limit unions' abilities to collect dues. it's headed for a senate vote. the u.s. navy is moving ships into position to monitor a north korean possible rocket launch. the defense department tells cnn's barbara starr that two ships are being moved to an unspecified position to provide reassurance to allies. it's possible two more ships could be sent to the region in the next few days. the taliban claimed responsibility for the suicide attack that wounded afghanistan's intelligence chief today. a senior police official says they targeted the chief as he was leaving a meeting. afghan president karzai told reports he's confident he will cover. a programming note, i will report live from afghanistan next week on the future of the country. >>> it has been 490 days since the u.s. lost its top credit rating. what are we doing to get it back? good news tonight. initial jobless claims fell more than expected down 25,000. now our fourth sfoer "outfront." high times in washington state tonight. voters approved the law last month, but whi
legislation by rick schneider would limit unions' abilities to collect dues. it's headed for a senate vote. the u.s. navy is moving ships into position to monitor a north korean possible rocket launch. the defense department tells cnn's barbara starr that two ships are being moved to an unspecified position to provide reassurance to allies. it's possible two more ships could be sent to the region in the next few days. the taliban claimed responsibility for the suicide attack that wounded...
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the legislation introduced by rick schneider would limit union's abilities to collect dues. the bill passed the house today. >>> the us navy is moving ships into position to monitor a north korean possible rocket launch. the defense department tells barbara starr that two ships are being moved to an unspecified position to provide reassurance to allies. the sources say it's possible two more ships could be sent to the region in the next few days and the taliban has claimed responsibility for the suicide attack that wounded afghanistan's intelligence chief. an official says the attacker targeted the chief as he was leaving a meeting. hamid karzai told reporters he's confidence he will recover. i will be reporting live from afghanistan next week on the future of the country. >>> it has been 490 days since the u.s. lost its top credit rating. good news on jobs. initial jobless claims fell more than expected. down 25,000 and now, our fourth story "outfront." high times in washington state tonight. a new law legalizing recreational use of marijuana went into effect today. while i
the legislation introduced by rick schneider would limit union's abilities to collect dues. the bill passed the house today. >>> the us navy is moving ships into position to monitor a north korean possible rocket launch. the defense department tells barbara starr that two ships are being moved to an unspecified position to provide reassurance to allies. the sources say it's possible two more ships could be sent to the region in the next few days and the taliban has claimed...
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to pay union dues. those in favor of the bill say what it would do is help the economy by saving jobs, bringing more work to michigan. even raising salaries by not forcing union dues on workers. those against the bill say that those benefits that they have now, those jobs that they have now, could take a major hit. obviously, huge political implications and we'll be watching to see how the action unfolds. >> allison kosik in lansing, michigan. where we expect huge protests over the next few days. >>> else where after taking a lot of heat for a hateful rap against u.s. soldiers, psy with the hit gangam style was spotted shaking hands with president obama over the weekend. psy performed at an event, and he apologized for the concert where he rapped with slowly and painfully killing u.s. military members and their families. a decade later he's a star and people are going through all that video. >> the lyrics on that, interesting. >>> still ahead on "starting point," governor chris christie could have a cha
to pay union dues. those in favor of the bill say what it would do is help the economy by saving jobs, bringing more work to michigan. even raising salaries by not forcing union dues on workers. those against the bill say that those benefits that they have now, those jobs that they have now, could take a major hit. obviously, huge political implications and we'll be watching to see how the action unfolds. >> allison kosik in lansing, michigan. where we expect huge protests over the next...
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opponents say it will lower wages and benefits and hurt the middle class and that strong unions built michigan's middle class. >> so fedex is bracing for the busiest day ever. ever. the company is expecting to handle 19 million packages today. that's 200 packs per second. the internet sales are booming and that is increasing volume by 10% over last year. >> i just ordered a ton last night. >> you're single-handedly responsible -- >> i'll be part of that. get it on time. that's all i say. the daring rescue of an american held in afghanistan comes at a very steep price. we're going to go live to the pentagon for more on the top secret mission. that's coming up. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] everyone deserves the gift of all day pain relief. this season, discover aleve. all day pain relief with just two pills. how they'll live tomorrow. for more than 116 years, ameriprise financial has worked for their clients' futures. helping millions of americans retire on their terms. when they want. where they want. doing what they want. ameriprise. the strength of a leader in retirement planning.
opponents say it will lower wages and benefits and hurt the middle class and that strong unions built michigan's middle class. >> so fedex is bracing for the busiest day ever. ever. the company is expecting to handle 19 million packages today. that's 200 packs per second. the internet sales are booming and that is increasing volume by 10% over last year. >> i just ordered a ton last night. >> you're single-handedly responsible -- >> i'll be part of that. get it on time....
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their union, from a state ruling legalizing same-sex marriage. did you think that you would be fighting a legal battle four years later, from the rights other couples enjoy? >> on that particular day, that was not really on our mind. >> reporter: three days later, california voted to out law future same-sex marriage, their union is still recognized byhe state, but not by the federal government. tracy served as a 12-year, highly decorated army veteran. >> especially after the repeal of don't ask, don't tell, there will be other veterans facing the same issues. >> reporter: for them, the immediate issue was the spousal benefits for which margaret was not eligible. >> i look to the time it is a fully recognized marriage in the eyes of the federal government, and we don't have to worry about burdens going on in our daily lives. >> reporter: burdens such as tracy's recent diagnosis, multiple sclerosis, which the veteran's administration has determined it was related to her military service during wars in iraq and afghanistan, they're suing the federal
their union, from a state ruling legalizing same-sex marriage. did you think that you would be fighting a legal battle four years later, from the rights other couples enjoy? >> on that particular day, that was not really on our mind. >> reporter: three days later, california voted to out law future same-sex marriage, their union is still recognized byhe state, but not by the federal government. tracy served as a 12-year, highly decorated army veteran. >> especially after the...
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his vice president but foreign minister and throughout his long career has been a bus driver and a union leader. it's ain it's not a complete surprise, but chavez has not signaled who will follow him, and now he has. he pointed to the person that he wants all his supporters to throw their weight behind and elect if hugo chavez is sidelined, is rendered incapable as president. he's essentially preparing venezuela and the region for without hugo chavez, and that is significant, suzanne. >> thank you very much. we appreciate it. second hour. >>> officials say he's doing well and there's no cause for alarm, but mandela is 94 years old and a bit frail. as for president obama he's visiting a detroit plant na makes dice sell truck engines. he's going to talk about the economy and fiscal cliff within the hour. we'll go to that live. >>> first to florida. that's where we learn new details about a long running mystery. in the town marianna and they have found more grave sites on the grounds a school that closed last century. nobody knows how many boys may be buried there and what abuse he suffer t
his vice president but foreign minister and throughout his long career has been a bus driver and a union leader. it's ain it's not a complete surprise, but chavez has not signaled who will follow him, and now he has. he pointed to the person that he wants all his supporters to throw their weight behind and elect if hugo chavez is sidelined, is rendered incapable as president. he's essentially preparing venezuela and the region for without hugo chavez, and that is significant, suzanne. >>...
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as for the air traffic controllers union, they released a statement this afternoon saying that it would be a major blow to the airline industry as well as the economy if these cuts are in effect. now, overall, we're talking about a nearly $2.2 billion projected cut to the department of transportation. half of that would come from the faa, and the tsa would suffer a $643 million spending cut. so according to the head of the tsa, they do have a plan b. they have a plan in place ready to go if these cuts are in place. now, he says that the overall front line operations would not be effective, but this would be a major severe budget cut and a lot of travelers here we spoke to, brooke, say they are paying close attention to the negotiations. >> it does concern me because, yes, i do travel not extensively, but enough on my job. and personally. so, yes, it does have some concern, i don't want to have to drive everywhere i have to go. but, you know, hopefully again we won't see too much of it and increase or inconvenience. >> reporter: according to airline industry experts, the worst case scena
as for the air traffic controllers union, they released a statement this afternoon saying that it would be a major blow to the airline industry as well as the economy if these cuts are in effect. now, overall, we're talking about a nearly $2.2 billion projected cut to the department of transportation. half of that would come from the faa, and the tsa would suffer a $643 million spending cut. so according to the head of the tsa, they do have a plan b. they have a plan in place ready to go if...
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the european union is also going to get involved and more sanctions. but my point is, i don't think they still have the capability to reach the united states, but they might some time soon. and so what we have to do is recognize that possibility. so a new approach, i believe, is needed. and i have i haven't figured out what that might be. we've tried engagement, diplomacy, excessive sanctions, isolate. i still think the worst thing to do is try to isolate them, sanction them to death. they already have so many sanctions. perhaps some new framework involving a different kind of six-party talks. the view has been that china runs the show with north korea. well, that's obviously not the case. they've got leverage, but, i think some new thinking is really needed. >> because i've heard, and i'm sure you have as well, from some optimists out there, because he has now proven himself to the generals and others, kim jong-un, the new leader of north korea, approaching the one-year anniversary of his father's death, he's got credibility, and precisely because of
the european union is also going to get involved and more sanctions. but my point is, i don't think they still have the capability to reach the united states, but they might some time soon. and so what we have to do is recognize that possibility. so a new approach, i believe, is needed. and i have i haven't figured out what that might be. we've tried engagement, diplomacy, excessive sanctions, isolate. i still think the worst thing to do is try to isolate them, sanction them to death. they...